Bob Flaws, DOM, CMT, Dipl.Ac.

Presentation + Questions & Answers
For CFS-FMS-Holistic Discussion Group
http://www.HolisticMed.Com/cfs/


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: mgold@tiac.net
Subject: Introduction of Visiting Expert

Hi!

I was in a bookstore a few weeks ago looking at books on Chinese Medicine. Approximately 20% of the book were written by our first honored Visiting Expert, Bob Flaws, DOM, CMT, Dipl.Ac. Most of the rest of the books were published by his publishing company, Blue Poppy Press. Bob Flaws has been instrumental educating Westerners about Chinese Medicine by writing and publishing books and conducting seminars for laypersons, students and experienced practitioners. It is an honor to introduce one of the world's most respected Chinese Medicine practitioners, Bob Flaws. [Clap, clap, clap, clap!]

Bob Flaws' opening presentation to CFS-FMS-Holistic will be sent out tomorrow (Monday). Please feel free to forward followup questions to the list after reading that presentation. Below is a more detailed "bio" for Bob Flaws.

Bob Flaws is an internationally acclaimed practitioner, author, and teacher of Chinese medicine. After graduating from Middlebury College with a B.A. in American literature in 1968, Bob journeyed to the East where he became a member of the Longchen Nyingthig Ngagyur Nyingmpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism. In 1975, as part of his practice of Bodhisattvic compassion, Bob began studying Tibetan Buddhist medicine. However, because of the difficulties of studying Tibetan medicine as a Westerner at that time, he became interested in Chinese medicine, a close cousin of Tibetan medicine which, due to Nixon's "opening of China," was becoming popular in the U.S. At roughly the same time, Bob began studying and practicing a number of Chinese systems of yoga and martial arts, including Tai Ji, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, Wing Chun, and Tibetan White Crane.

After studying Chinese medical theory, especially five phase theory, and shiatsu at the Boulder School of Massage Therapy, Bob began formally studying acupuncture and Chinese medicine with Dr. (Eric) Tao Xi-yu of Denver in 1977. In 1979, Bob opened a private practice in acupuncture in Boulder, CO. From 1982-86, Bob continued his studies of acupuncture, tuina (Chinese medical massage), and Chinese herbal medicine at the Shanghai College of Chinese Medicine. Since then, Bob has been actively engaged not only in private practice but also in translating, writing, teaching, and research. Also since the early 80s, Bob has primarily focused on the practice of Chinese gynecology and the treatment of so-called "knotty, difficult to treat diseases."

Having written, translated, and/or edited over four dozen books and scores of articles on all aspects of Chinese medicine, Bob is now editor-in-chief of Blue Poppy Press, the world's largest English language publisher devoted solely to Chinese medicine. Some of Bob's many other credits include being a Fellow and past Governor of the National Academy of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine, a Fellow of the Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine (UK), and Lifetime Fellow, past President and Board member, and founding member of the Acupuncture Association of Colorado, a founding member of the National Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Alliance, and a contributing editor to the Townsend Letter for Doctor's & Patients.

As one of the most popular and sought after teachers of Chinese medicine in the West, Bob is known for the clarity of his explanations, the depth of his scholarship, and his passion for Chinese medicine. His newest title, Curing FMS with Chinese Medicine, will be released by Blue Poppy Press (www.bluepoppy.com) in early January 2000.


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws, Dipl. Ac., Dipl. C.H., FNAAOM
Subject: Fibromyalgia Syndrome & Chinese Medicine

Fibromyalgia Syndrome & Chinese Medicine
by
Bob Flaws, Dipl. Ac., Dipl. C.H., FNAAOM

Traditional Chinese medicine is the oldest continually practiced, literate, secular, professional medicine in the world today. As a system, it has been continuously evolving over not less than 2,500 years or more than 100 generations. It is not a primitive, folk medicine. In the People s Republic of China today, there are at least 30 full-time, four year Chinese medical colleges, thousands of Chinese medicine clinics and hospitals, and hundreds of thousands of full-time professional practitioners of Chinese medicine licensed and regulated by the Chinese Ministry of Health. Not only does one quarter of the world s population in Asia rely on this medicine, but, since the early 1970s, this medicine has become increasingly popular among both Western health care practitioners and their patients. In fact, studies have shown that Western medical doctors refer more often to acupuncturists and practitioners of Chinese medicine than to any other alternative or complementary health care providers.

One of the reasons that Chinese medicine is such a rising star in the West is because it is both a holistic medicine par excellent and it has such a sound, mature professional, theoretical, educational, and empirical basis. Although the main therapies or modalities used in Chinese medicine tend to be natural (Chinese herbs), safe, and relatively free from side effects (acupuncture & moxibustion), the real thing that makes Chinese medicine the safe, effective, and holistic medicine it is is its prescriptive methodology. In Chinese medicine, treatment is based on the patient s individualized pattern discrimination, not just on their disease diagnosis. A person s pattern is the sum total of all their signs and symptoms, including their energy, mood, sleep, appetite, digestion, elimination, and any and all physical or mental complaints, not just the signs and symptoms which Western medicine equals their disease diagnosis. Therefore, Chinese patterns are much more inclusive than Western medical disease diagnoses. They do not deny or conflict with such diagnoses; rather, they encompass such disease diagnoses in the same way that a tree is part of a forest. The forest is the larger entity or environment within which the tree exists. Similarly, people are always more than a single disease, and hence treatment needs to address the whole person. To do otherwise, and cause unwanted side effects in the process due to lack of sufficiently broad vision, is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. However, in this case, both Peter and Paul are both part of our ourselves, our integrated bodymind.

For instance, people are male or female, old or young, heavy-set or slim, cold or hot, damp or dry, have constipation or diarrhea, sleep well or sleep poorly, have beautiful, lustrous skin or dry, scaly skin, have regular or irregular menstruation, etc., etc., etc. beyond just the Western medical symptoms of their disease diagnosis. When treatment is directed at the patient s entire, personalized, bodymind pattern, then the disease is addressed at the same time as the entire organism is brought back into a state of dynamic, interrelated balance and well-being. In Chinese medicine, there is a famous saying which every Chinese doctor is expected to know by heart:

Same disease, different treatments;
Different diseases, same treatment
What this means is that two people with the same named Western medical disease may receive two entirely different Chinese medical treatments if their Chinese medical patterns are different, while another two patients with different named diseases may receive exactly the same treatment if their Chinese patterns are the same.

Unfortunately, although it is this prescriptive methodology that makes professionally practiced Chinese medicine the holistic medicine it is, it also makes it very hard to describe to Westerners since all the basic theoretical concepts and names of the patterns have absolutely nothing to do with modern Western medicine. This is a completely separate and distinct system of medicine that evolved over more than two millenia along very different lines from Western medicine and biology. Therefore, the person interested in Chinese medicine has to be willing to learn a whole new language and way of thinking. Let me give you an example.

Hannah is beside herself and doesn t know what to do. Her body has been aching all over for several months. In addition, she has been extremely fatigued and depressed. If she could only get a good night s sleep, she thinks she might feel better. However, she can only sleep till four o-clock each night. Then she lies awake in her bed, tossing and turning, unable to go back to sleep. Her PMS has gotten so bad lately that she s afraid her husband is going to leave her, and if she misses any more work, her boss is certainly going to fire her. To top it off, every time she eats, her abdomen becomes bloated and crampy and she has urgent diarrhea several times per day. She s been to several different doctors and all have told her she has something else. One tested her for rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus erythmatosus which, thankfully, turned out to be negative. Another told her she was depressed. A third said she had something called chronic fatigue syndrome and that she may be sick for months and even years. And a fourth has explained to Hannah that all her problems together comprise something called fibromyalgia syndrome or FMS. For months she s been taking Ibuprofen as if it were M & M s. One of the doctors prescribed Prozac, but she didn t want to take it. Another prescribed Flexeril, but she finds it makes her so drowsy, she can t concentrate or think. If she doesn t find a solution to all this soon, Hannah thinks she really will go crazy.

Based on a friend s recommendation, Hannah decides to see a professional practitioner of Chinese medicine. When she arrives at this practitioner s office, she is asked to fill out a lengthy in-take form asking her both about her current symptoms and her medical history. When she goes into the practitioner s office, they ask her even more questions about every aspect of her body s functioning. Then the practitioner has Hannah stick out her tongue several times. And finally, the practitioner asks Hannah to put both wrists palm up on a small cushion and feels the pulses at both her wrists. During all of this, the practitioner is taking copious notes. After writing down their pulse findings, the practitioner goes over everything in front of them and asks a few more questions. Finally the practitioner tells Hannah her Chinese pattern discrimination. Hannah is exhibiting the Chinese medical patterns of (spleen) qi and (liver blood-kidney) yin vacuity with damp heat, liver depression, and blood stasis.

Let me immediately caution you that the spleen, liver, and kidneys mentioned above are not the spleen, liver, and kidneys we all learned about in high school biology. Although I am forced to use certain English words, when these words are used in Chinese medicine, they typically mean some very different from what we are used to. Nevertheless, let me try to explain how the Chinese doctor has come to this group of Chinese pattern discriminations.

Right away, the practitioner knew that Hannah is exhibiting spleen qi vacuity because of her extreme exhaustion and fatigue. They also have taken into account the facts that she is a female, that she is 40 years of age, and that she is slightly overweight. Spleen qi vacuity is then confirmed by the facts that her fatigue is worse after eating and she has abdominal distention after meals. Hannah had also said yes to lack of strength and dizziness when she stood up as well as easy bruising, all common spleen qi vacuity signs and symptoms. Spleen qi vacuity is also confirmed by her swollen, enlarged tongue and a pulse which is fine, floating, and forceless in the middle position on her right hand.

The practitioner suspected Hannah is exhibiting a liver blood-kidney yin vacuity because of her matitudinal, i.e., early morning, insomnia and muscular stiffness. In addition, Hannah is prematurely grey. Liver blood-kidney yin vacuity is confirmed by the facts that her pulse is very fine overall on the left wrist and her tongue is pale but its tip is abnormally red. To further confirm a liver blood vacuity, the practitioner has ascertained that Hannah does not see very well at night and her fingernails are dry and brittle. To further confirm the kidney yin vacuity, the practitioner has ascertained that Hannah has low back pain and has to get up at night to urinate. However, when she does so, her urine is scanty and dark yellow in color.

The damp heat is evidenced by the hot, heavy feelings Hannah has in all the joints which are sore and the fact that this muscular aching and soreness is worse when the weather was damp and hot. It is also evidenced by the slightly yellow, slimy coating on the back of Hannah s tongue, the slippery quality of the pulse in the proximal position on the right wrist, her sometimes dark and sometimes bright yellow stools, and the burning feeling she often has around her anus after defecation. It is further confirmed by the fact that Hannah has a history of urinary tract infections that have been treated by antibiotics and sometimes has "yeasty" or curdy vaginal discharge which is aggravated by eating sugar and sweets.

The fact that Hannah is depressed and that her PMS has worsened immediately makes the practitioner suspect liver depression qi stagnation. This is confirmed by the abdominal cramping before bowel movements, her irritability, and a worsening of all her symptoms when under emotional stress. Besides that, her pulses are also definitely bowstring, the pulse of the Chinese idea of the liver. Given all that is going wrong for Hannah in her body, the practitioner would have been surprised if there hadn t been plenty of signs and symptoms of liver depression.

And finally, the fact that Hannah has blood stasis is suggested by the severe, sharp, fixed nature of some of Hannah s body pain and is further borne out by her severe menstrual cramps, the clots in her menstruate, and the pronounced varicosities behind her left knee.

Given all these Chinese patterns, I imagine most readers at this point are asking, "Ok, but what to do about all of this?"

Although Hannah has a number of Chinese patterns presenting simultaneously, this seeming complexity really does not present any particular problem to the Chinese doctor. Having determined Hannah s overall pattern, the Chinese medical practitioner next states the treatment principles necessary to correct the imbalances implied in the names of Hannah s patterns. Thus the next thing the Chinese doctor does is write down the following principles: Fortify the spleen and boost the qi, nourish the blood and enrich yin, clear heat and eliminate dampness, course the liver and rectify the qi, quicken the blood and free the flow of the network vessels.

Knowing that these are the treatment principles that will restore balance to Hannah s system, anything that promotes these principles will be good for Hannah, and anything that goes against these principles will be bad for Hannah. In terms of professional therapies, the two main professional modalities used by Chinese doctors are Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture. There are Chinese medicinal herbs whose functions are to fortify the spleen and boost the qi. There are other Chinese herbs which nourish the blood and enrich yin. Yet other Chinese herbs clear heat and eliminate dampness, course the liver and rectify the qi, or quicken the blood and free the flow of the network vessels. Therefore, the Chinese doctor will write a prescription for Chinese herbs that cover all these bases. Likewise, there are acupuncture points which also perform these various functions. Here in the West, most Chinese medical practitioners practice both herbal medicine and acupuncture, so Hannah will probably receive treatment with both of these modalities.

In addition, the Chinese medical practitioner will pay careful attention to Hannah s diet. Because spleen qi vacuity plays such an important part in fibromyalgia and because the spleen is so easily damaged by eating the wrong things, right diet is the foundation of its treatment. However, Hannah s practitioner will also discuss the importance of proper exercise and rest and also of daily deep relaxation. By taking her Chinese herbs and receiving some acupuncture treatment as well as following her practitioner s advice regarding diet, exercise, relaxation, and lifestyle, Hannah should be well on her way to recovery by the end of three months.

Again you might ask, "What if Hannah had had other symptoms?"

If Hannah had had other symptoms than the ones we have discussed above, then her Chinese pattern or combination of patterns would be slightly different or at least the order of their importance would be different. For instance, if Hannah had wet eczema as well as frequent, burning urination at the time of her examination, damp heat might have been moved to the head of the list. If Hannah had complained of hayfever and/or asthma, phlegm dampness would have been added to her list of other patterns, perhaps after liver depression and before blood stasis. If Hannah had said that, in addition to everything else, she had cold feet and markedly decreased libido, then we would ve added kidney yang vacuity after liver blood- kidney yin vacuity or we simply might have said she had a dual kidney yin and yang vacuity. In other words, if a person s symptom-sign complex changes in any way, then their Chinese pattern discrimination does also, and professional Chinese medical care is primarily predicated upon each patient s pattern.

As Hannah s case shows, there is no one Chinese "fibromylagia herb" or even a single fibromyalgia formula or treatment. Chinese medicinals and acupuncture treatment as well as Chinese dietary therapy are all individually prescribed based on a person s Chinese pattern discrimination, not on their Western medical disease diagnosis, such as CFIDS or FMS. The pattern discrimination is very important because if, for example, a person has FMS and most of her symptoms are due to liver depression, then too many qi supplements or too high a dose of them will make the person feel worse, not better. Since this person s qi is depressed, adding more qi to what is already not flowing freely only adds to this depression and may worsen the symptoms that are due to it, such as abdominal pain, constipation, or irritability. This is why Western pharamceuticals are so prone to causing unwanted and frequently unacceptable side effects. There is nothing wrong with the medicine per se. It has simply been prescribed to a person with the right disease but wrong pattern.

In addition, because most people with FMS present with more than one Chinese pattern, professional Chinese medicine never treats people with FMS with herbal "singles." In Western herbalism, singles mean the prescription of a single herb all by itself. Chinese herbal medicine is based on rebalancing patterns, and patterns in real-life patients almost always have more than a single element. In fact, most patients like Hannah with FMS exhibit five, six, seven, eight, or even more concomitant Chinese patterns. Therefore, Chinese doctors almost always prescribe herbs in multi-ingredient formulas. Such formulas may have anywhere from 6-18 or more ingredients. When a Chinese doctor reads a prescription by another Chinese doctor, they can tell you not only what the patient s pattern discrimination is but also their probable signs and symptoms. In other words, the Chinese doctor does not just combine several medicinals which are all reputed to be "good for FMS." Rather, they carefully craft a formula whose ingredients are meant to rebalance every aspect of the patient s bodymind.

Within Chinese medicine, there are both professionally prescribed and administered treatments and also a host of low or no cost home remedies. However, even with these no and low-cost home remedies, there is no "one size fits all." This is why it is necessary to see a professional practitioner of Chinese medicine for a personalized Chinese medical pattern discrimination. Once one knows one s pattern(s), then there are all sorts of things that one can do for oneself in order to speed one s recovery from FMS and prevent relapse. These include self-massage, magnet therapy, aroma therapy, sunlight therapy, foot reflexology, moxibustion, seven star hammering, and the use of simple Chinese herbal teas, porridges, and over-the-counter, ready-made Chinese herbal medicines.

As the reader should hopefully have recognized by now, learning about Chinese medicine is like entering another world. Nor is it a world that lends itself to sound bites. Below are some resources in order to help you go further in the world of Chinese medicine both off and on-line.

Curing Fibromyalgia Naturally with Chinese medicine by Bob Flaws, Blue Poppy Press: This book is a basic introduction to all the Chinese medical theories necessary for understanding FMS from the Chinese medical point of view. It includes chapters on Chinese dietary therapy and FMS, scores of Chinese self-help techniques and home remedies, an annotated bibliography, glossary, and chapters on how to find local professional practitioners of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Because three of the major symptoms of FMS are insomnia, depression, and irritable bowel syndrome, readers may also be interested in seeing Blue Poppy Press s Curing Depression Naturally with Chinese Medicine by Rosa Schyner & Bob Flaws, Curing Insomnia Naturally with Chinese Medicine by Bob Flaws, and Curing IBS Naturally with Chinese Medicine by Jane Bean.

For a good basic introduction to Chinese medicine in general, I still think Ted Kaptchuk s The Web That Has No Weaver is the best and most insightful explanation for intelligent lay readers. Published originally in 1982, it is still in print. To me, I think that speaks for itself.

Another way to learn about Chinese medicine in general is through Sounds True s six tape audiocassette set titled Chinese Secrets of Health & Longevity by Bob Flaws. This tape set includes discussions of Chinese herbal medicine, self-massage, qi gong, Chinese dietary therapy, feng shui, meditation,and more.

For more information about Chinese dietary therapy, you might want to check out Blue Poppy Press s The Tao of Healthy Eating by Bob Flaws.

Good Internet sites for gaining more information on acupuncture and Chinese medicine include:

www.acupuncture.com
www.craneherb.com
www.redwingbooks.com
www.bluepoppy.com

And for professional health care practitioners interested in learning more about Chinese medicine, please contact:

seminars@bluepoppy.com

If anyone has any questions about any of this, please feel free to contact me by email via:

mgold@holisticmed.com

[ Moderator Note: Questions during Visit should be email to: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net ]

Best wishes and good health.

Sincerely,

Bob Flaws


To: CFS-FMS-HOLISTIC@mLists.net
From: "Diane" [djbocch@worldnet.att.net]
Subject: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:22:55 -0500
Hi,

I just found out about this list. I have a CFS diagnosis and am very interested in traditional chinese medicine. I am so glad to see Bob Flaws as the visiting expert. I give Mark lots of kudos for the fine job of setting up this list and engaging Bob and the other visiting experts.

I found Bob's opening post very interesting and informative. I had acupuncture 2 -3x weekly for 2 years for my CFS. I was curious about TCM so I read several books on it (Kaptchuk, Beinfield/Korngold). Acupuncture helped me only a slight bit, but I tolerated it well. I also tried some qigong which I noticed also helped a bit. I felt that TCM had lots of potential for helping me and I like the idea of wellness being balance. But I thought there was something missing...the acupuncture didn't seem enough for me. I almost felt I needed continual acupuncture to make much headway. (I was very ill...bedridden for 4.5 yrs.)

I later went on to use NAET (Nambudripad Allergy Elimination Technique) which uses muscle response testing to determine what your allergies are and acupressure to clear them. The idea with NAET is that allergies to substances cause energy blockages in one's meridians, leading to imbalances and disharmonies. The muscle testing in NAET indicated that most of my meridians were blocked by many allergens, and that my kidney meridian was blocked just about every time. Clearing the blockages with NAET apparently helped my qi flow and balance as my symptoms started to improve more. My thought is that I was not able to hold a balance/acupuncture treatment very long because coming into contact with one of my many allergens would cause problems in many of my meridians, leading to more imbalance.

My acupuncturist diagnosed me (if I recall) with mainly deficient heat, kidney yin deficiency, deficient qi, damp heat, and lesser disharmonies in spleen and liver. (Yellow coating on tongue especially in the back, and red spots on my tongue, especially at tip.) My symptoms were mainly extreme fatigue/heaviness especially in lower body, difficulty falling asleep and awaking several times during the night, exhaustion upon awaking, skin rashes, some short term memory/recall and thinking difficulty, difficulty tolerating alot of stimulus, extreme sensitities to foods, meds, herbs, supplements, etc. I also have extremely dry skin. Looking back I had many of these symptoms to some degree for many years, but they got severe when I crashed with CFS. My sensitivities to everything have dropped to negligible since clearing allergies with NAET, and other symptoms, while still present, have improved significantly and continue to improve.

So my questions (after that long-winded background) are:


Well, I think that is about all for now.

Thanks,

..diane


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws, Dipl. Ac., Dipl. C.H., FNAAOM
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:29:37 EST

Diane,

It sounds like your acupuncturist had a pretty good idea of your Chinese patterns of disharmony. I'm sorry to hear that you did not get much benefit from the acupuncture. However, that does not surprise me much for two reasons:

  1. CFS and FMS are not mainly acupuncture diseases because they commonly include great amounts of vacuity (or deficiency) and acupuncture does not deal with vacuity, especially yin vacuity, very effectively. Within standard, professionally practiced Chinese medicine, the main treatment for both these conditions is internally administered Chinese herbal medicine. I have personally seen great improvements when the right Chinese medicinals match the patient's personal Chinese pattern(s). If the right Chinese medicinal prescription is used, then supplemental acupuncture can be of definite adjunctive benefit.

  2. In my opinion, modern Chinese acupuncture is not sophisticated enough to treat the complex, inter-related patterns of CFS and FMS. Both these conditions are species of yin fire conditions (as described by Li Dong-yuan in the Jin-Yuan dynasties). Therefore, they need a much more sophisticated type of acupuncture than most Chinese-trained acupuncture are currently practicing. The type of acupuncture I would recommend is either Japanese acupuncture (so-called Japanese Meridian Therapy) or Mark Seem's "Acupuncture Osteopathy." Mark Seem does not know anything about yin fire or Li Dong-yuan, but he nevertheless has hit upon effective treatment strategies for these kinds of conditions (partially learned from Japanese teachers). Mark has a brand new book out about his treatment approach called "Acupunture Physical Medicine." It is published by Blue Poppy Press and can be purchased on-line at www.bluepoppy.com. In it, he describes his protocols and experiences in treating CFS and FMS.

CFS and FMS are very similar in terms of their typical combinations of Chinese medical patterns. Sufferers from FMS tend to have more wind damp heat impediment pattern, while sufferers of CFS tend to have more taxation and food nue patterns. Nue is a Chinese medical concept which includes the Western disease of malaria but is more than malaria. It describes any condition which tends to periodic relapses of fever, fatigue, and malaise with or without accompanying chills. Food nue describes relapses caused by food, while taxation nue describes relapses caused by and prmarily characterized by fatigue. In addition, in my experience, sufferers of FMS tend to have more problems with insomnia than do CFS sufferers. However, because of so much overlap between these two diseases, some authorities think that as many as 75% of those diagnosed with CFS actually have FMS.

The good news is that Chinese doctors don't have to worry about this. We treat based on the patient's personal pattern at the time of treatment and not their Western disease diagnosis.

Food typically plays a large part in both CFS and FMS. This is because spleen qi vacuity and damp heat play such a large role in both these conditions. The main cause of both spleen qi vacuity and damp heat in the West is faulty diet. My book, The Tao of Healthy Eating, goes into detail on all of this. On the other hand, liver depression is mostly a psychoemotional pattern, and every patient with either CFS or FMS does, in my experience, have liver depression. So diet alone is never the answer to these conditions. In addition, with diet, the issue is always what to avoid. There are no magic bullet foods to eat which will make you better.

There are many pages of self-help techniques in my book, Curing Fibromyalgia Naturally with Chinese Medicine. These are too numerous for me to try to describe them in an email message. If you got to www.bluepoppy.com, you will find a longer description of this book and what it contains. It is equally as useful for CFS patients as for FMS patients since the patterns are so similar.

In closing, please let me I wish you good luck in dealing with your condition. I know it is a very difficult one. My best advice for you is to find a really good Chinese doctor who A) has been thoroughly trained in Chinese medicine (not just acupuncture) and B) has had definite success with treating your condition. Unfortunately, Chinese medicine is just beginning here in the West and there is a dearth of really completely trained, competent professional practitioners. Therefore, I can't say for sure that such a practitioner does exist in your locale. If not, then I would not waste time worrying about Chinese medicine but rather try to find a practitioner of some other system who is equally well trained in their modality and has achieved success in patients with your disease.

Sincerely,

Bob Flaws


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: "Christine Wells" hammer9@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:28:16 -0500

I don't know what happened to my original message, but I sent one with some questions. Here goes again. I might not be able to remember them all, but I'll try.

I first asked about finding a Chinese medicine specialist. How do you find one in your area? Is there some way to get info to make sure your specialist is competent and able. What credentials should you look for?

When going to a Chinese medicine specialist, any ideas on getting most insurance to cover this type of care?

Well, I am having "fibrofog" this a.m. and I can't think of the rest of the questions. If you could answer these, maybe I can remember the rest.

Thank you,
Christine Wells


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:50:13 EST

Christine,

What a good set of questions. These are very important considerations. Here's my suggestions for finding a competent, local professional practitioner of Chinese medicine:

  1. Look under "Acupuncture" in your Yellow Pages. While this won't tell you who's good, it will tell you who's there. At the moment, all state-licensed practitioners of Chinese medicine are licensed as acupuncturists and are listed under that category in the Yellow Pages. If there is no such listing, call your State Department of Regulatory Agencies , your State Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, or your State Attorney General's office to find out if acupuncture and, therefore, Chinese medicine, is a legally licensed profession in your state.

  2. If acupuncture (and Chinese medicine) are legal in your state, then call your State Department of Regulatory Agencies and ask for two things: A) a list of licensed acupuncturists in your area, and B) the name and telephone number of the local acupuncture professional association. If acupuncture is legal, there IS a state professional association.

  3. Call the local state acupuncture professional association and ask them for referrals to their members in your area. Tell whoever answers the phone A) what your problem is, B) that you want someone really knowledgeable and experienced in treating this condition, and C) that you want someone who does both acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine, preferably someone who dispenses individually written and modified, bulk-dispensed Chinese herbal prescriptions.

  4. Call or email the National Commission for the Certification of Acupuncturists & Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) in Washington, DC or Silver Springs, MD (I forget which city) and ask them for the names of nationally board certified practitioners of acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine in your area. Do be aware that there are two separate exams, one for acupuncture and one for Chinese herbs. I think you want someone who has BOTH certifications. The NCCAOM should be reachable through a link at my Web page: www.bluepoppy.com.

  5. By now you should have a number of names of local practitioners (if there are any). Next, I would go to a couple of your local health food stores and ask the people there who they have heard is really good. The clerks at health food stores are usually pretty well-informed of who's out there doing what.

  6. Sit down and call some of the names and numbers you have gotten. Basically, practitioners will divide into two large groups: A) ethnic Asians and B) Anglo-Europeans. Ethnic Asians trained in Asia tend to have the best educations and most extensive clinical experience. However, because English is not their native language, they may or may not be able to communicate effectively with you. Be sure you go to someone who truly does understand what you are saying. Anglo-European practitioners speak descent English, but they tend not to be as well trained nor do they, as a group, typically have as extensive clinical experience. So here are the types of questions I would ask a prospective practitioner:


    You then need to evaluate these answers the same way you would evaluate any health care practitioner's credentials. Does the person seem credible? Do they sound flaky? Do they sound knowledgeable and confident? Do they sound like they understand me? Are they compassionate? Would you buy a used car from this person?

I wish I could say that all licensed American acupuncturists (and practitioners of Chinese medicine) are, indeed, truly competent to treat complex, difficult to treat, chronic, deep-seated diseases. The truth of the matter is that Chinese medicine is just beginning here in the West, and everyone is not well-trained. Unless the person is an ethnic Asian, they probably don't have direct personal access to the modern Chinese medical literature on your disease, even though they should. That's just the way things are for now. Nevertheless, if you do a little shopping around, hopefully you will be able to find a competent professional practitioner of Chinese medicine in your area.

In addition, do please remember that licensure as any other kind of health practitioner (e.g., MD, DO, DC, ND, etc.) does not confer any a priori knowledge or expertise in Chinese medicine. Just as you would not call a plumber to fix your electrical wiring, my advice is to seek treatment from professional practitioners of this particular medicine, not from members of other professions who are dabbling in Chinese medicine. In terms of Western medicine, either you have graduated from medical school or not. It's exactly the same with Chinese medicine. You either have or have not completed your entry level professional training in THIS medicine regardless of any other degrees you have earned.

I hope the above helps you find a local practitioner of Chinese medicine who can help you. I wish you all the best. If you cannot find such a local practitioner, then I suggest you forget about Chinese medicine (for the time being) and find the best local practitioner of whatever modality who can help you.

Sincerely,

Bob Flaws


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: mgold@tiac.net
Subject: CFS/FMS: Questions for Bob Flaws

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:02:40 -0700 (MST)

Bob,

Thank you for the answers and information you have provided! I have a few questions that I was hoping you could answer.

  1. There are online directories of practitioners. Some of the directories of Chinese Medicine practitioners can be found under the "Oriental Medicine" links section of my Directories of Practitioners web page: http://www.holisticmed.com/www/directory.html.

    The referral list at ITM looks particularly intesting because of the attempt to list more experienced practitioners: http://www.itmonline.org/pract.htm.

    I was wondering if you have any thoughts or experience with using the online directories? I assume that it is still important to ask the questions you suggested.

  2. I would expect that some of the people you see with FMS or CFS are on medication such as sleep aids, anti-depressants, anti-fungals, pain control meds, etc. Do your clients generally reduce their medication as needed or is it often the case that the customized herbal formula plus other treatments allows for the quicker elimination of some medications?

  3. There are quite a few herbal teas on the market these days (Yogi Tea, Traditional Medicinals, Celestial Seasonings). Do you find that drinking some of these products could interfere with one's progress while on a customized herbal formula and other Chinese Medicine treatments? I assume that herbs and supplements should be discussed with the practitioner.

Thank you again!

Best Wishes,
- Mark
mgold@tiac.net
Home of CFS/FMS Holistic Mailing List
http://www.HolisticMed.com/cfs/


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws, Dipl. Ac., Dipl. C.H., FNAAOM
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS: Questions for Bob Flaws

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:53:13 EST

Mark,

Sorry, I don't have any personal experience using on-line referral services. I most defintely would still ask lots of questions. Chinese medicine is only in its infancy here in the U.S. and most Western practitioners are not very well educated, especially clinically, compared with graduates of Chinese med schools. So you do have to be careful. Diane did share her own not so successful experiences with a local practitioner who, I'm sure, was a graduate of an American school, was licensed, etc., etc.

As for combining Western and Chinese meds: Generally we begin prescribing Chinese meds while the person is still taking their Western meds and then the Chinese meds help the patient reduce and eventually get off the Western meds. Research in China has shown that correctly prescribed Chinese medicinals not only alleviate the side effects of Western drugs but make those Western drugs work more effectively, potentizing their therapeutic effect. So a person doesn't have to stop all Western meds to try Chinese medicine. Most people in China today use some combination of the two.

Bob Flaws


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: "Diane"djbocch@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:36:10 -0500

Bob and all,

Thanks for your informative reply to my note, Bob. I have some more questions. :)

I found your explanation for why the acupuncture didn't help me much seemed to fit with some of my ideas. I remember my acupuncturist saying it can take awhile to build up deficiency, and CFS is a great deficiency in many ways. I wasn't aware that the japanese acupuncture was better suited for some conditions.

> I have personally seen great improvements when the right Chinese
> medicinals match the patient's personal Chinese pattern(s). If the right
> Chinese medicinal prescription is used, then supplemental acupuncture can
> be of definite adjunctive benefit.

I saw an example of chinese medicinal prescriptions in the TCM segment of Bill Moyers PBS show "Healing and the Mind". I noticed you mentioned in your other response about finding a practitioner:

>preferably someone who dispenses individually written and modified,
> bulk-dispensed Chinese herbal prescriptions.

--- What do you mean by this exactly? A practitioner who get the raw herbs and mixes up a herbal concoction based on a patient's individual needs? Is this better than a manufactured chinese herbal formula from some company?

I remember when my acupuncturist tried to have me take various manufactured chinese herbal formulas I had a very hard time tolerating them. I reacted to just about everything he gave me, even though I would start out with a small fraction of an ordinary dose.

--- Is this a common occurence for CFS/FM patients to have difficulty tolerating herbs? Is there some type of "healing crisis" that occurs with chinese herbal therapy?

--- Are over the counter chinese herbal formulas or single herb supplements very helpful?

> CFS and FMS are very similar in terms of their typical combinations of
> Chinese medical patterns. Sufferers from FMS tend to have more wind damp
> heat impediment pattern, while sufferers of CFS tend to have more taxation
> and food nue patterns.

This is interesting....the similarities and differences between the TCM diagnoses of CFS and FM. My good friend has very bad FM and we compare symptoms. :) She has mostly severe pain, sleep disturbance/hardly sleeps at all, and digestive problems. She does have fatigue but it doesn't seem anywhere near mine.

In my TCM reading I came across something about pain being caused by stagnantion...energy/qi stagnation. From my qigong I learned that movement can help qi move. I have noticed that FM folks seem to be able to move more than CFSers and that some exercise seems to help FMers pain.

--- Would the benefit of exercise to some FMers be related to the movement of qi and some reduction in stagnation?

I also noticed that the points my acupuncturist picked to insert the needles were sometimes spots that were sore. :(

--- If the spot is sore does that mean it likely needs some attention? What about the trigger spots on FMers...are these spots acupuncture points...spots that need attention also?

--- Do you find that taking lots of meds or herbs or supplements can be counterproductive to one's goal of improving harmony/energy balance? (You didn't respond to this one before.)

Thanks,

..diane


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws, Dipl. Ac., Dipl. C.H., FNAAOM
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:44:58 EST

Diane,

The standard of care in professional Chinese medicine as established in the Peoples' Republic of China is the internal administration of bulk-dispensed Chinese medicinals based on an individually written prescription. These medicinals are boiled in water and drunk as a "tea." This method of administration allows the professional practitioner to choose and adjust the dosages of each medicinal, adding and subtracting accordingly so that the final formula fits the patient "like a glove." When prescribed properly this way, there should be healing with zero unwanted side effects.

Although my book on FMS gives the names of a number of OTC Chinese herbal medicines for people with FMS and CFS to try, this is not considered the professional norm. Nor can you treat such complex diseases with single herbs. At least in professional Chinese medicine, complex diseases require complex formulas, and these formulas need to be adjusted on a weekly basis.

I fully understand that this is not the norm amongst Western practitioners of Chinese medicine in the U.S. today, although it is the norm in China. However, the use of low potency Chinese herbal pills and powders, as you yourself experienced, is not satisfactory for your kind of condition. This is not the level of professional practice that I am talking about and which I am trying to make more available in the U.S. Unfortunately, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

What it sounds like is that there isn't a really high quality, thoroughly trained professional practitioner of Chinese medicine in your area. People such as myself are pedalling as fast as we can to try and change this situation. I'm sorry the change has not come fast enough to help you.

Sincerely,

Bob Flaws


To:
From: "Diane"
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS Questions etc for Bob

Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 17:09:31 -0500

Bob and all,

> What it sounds like is that there isn't a really high quality,
> thoroughly trained professional practitioner of Chinese medicine in your
> area. People such as myself are pedalling as fast as we can to try and
> change this situation. I'm sorry the change has not come fast enough to
> help you.

My acupuncturist was trained at the New England Acupuncture School in Boston and is licensed. There were a few Asian practitioners in my area at the time I think, but since my practitioner had been an MD in Europe and I knew nothing about acupuncture at the time and I heard some folks recommend him, I figured I would go with someone who was familiar and trained in both eastern and western medicine. Now I have a better idea of what to look for in a practitioner. :)

Even though my particular acupuncture treatment didn't help me that much, the experience with traditional chinese medicine and the introduction to TCM principles and energy medicine has helped me tremendously. It lead me to NAET which uses acupressure and muscle testing. I incorporated ideas of TCM such as balance and food therapy and qigong into my health regimen. I incorporated the ideas of addressing the whole person...emotional aspects and spiritual aspects, not just the physical...into my healing. I have used *no* medication or supplements in 3.5+ yrs. I only started using a couple of herbs a little bit in the last month.

I was bedridden for 4.5 yrs with CFS. I have been improving gradually over the past 4 yrs, and am starting in a masters program in Holistic Counseling in Jan. Not only have all my CFS symptoms improved substantially, but other conditions I have had for decades are reversing.

I feel that TCM has a great deal to offer, especially for conditions like CFS and FM where western medicine has not been very effective.

..diane


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: mgold@tiac.net
Subject: CFS/FMS: Chinese Medicine

Hi!

I've had some success with Chinese Medicine treatment. But like Diane, I found that making the effort to pursue it led me to additional interesting and useful Holistic Medicine treatments.

I wanted to follow-up on Bob Flaws' excellent presentation and put forth a few ideas related to the presentation and finding a Chinese Medicine practitioner that may help.

  1. If you have subscribed to the list in the past week (after Dec. 13), please read the Visiting Expert presentation archives as you may haeve missed some of the questions and answers due to a lag in getting the information into the archive. You can find Bob Flaws' presentation and Q&A's at:

    http://www.holisticmed.com/cfs/#experts

    Also, you may want to read my short presentation on how to get the most out of the list and Holistic Medicine.

  2. It may seem like a daunting task to find a top-notch Chinese Medicine practitioner as described by Bob Flaws. The following ideas should make the situation a little easier.

    • In the next few months (if all goes as planned), we will be discussing some very useful and powerful Holistic Medicine techniques. So, if the Chinese Medicine practitioner is not as skilled as would be ideal, that is okay. These other techniques along with some Chinese Medicine treatment may very well be sufficient.

    • I have links to some online Chinese Medicine practitioner databases at:

      http://www.holisticmed.com/www/directory.html

      listed under the category, "Oriental Medicine." The first link goes to the Institute of Traditional Medicine list. Click on that link, go to the end of the page and you will see a .PDF (adobe acrobat) format file that contains a list of practitioner who have had a minimum of 3 years clinical experience (including prescribing herbs) and an average of 11 years of clinical experience.

      That list may be a good start for contacting practitioners and asking the questions Bob Flaws suggested.

    • Even if you cannot find a Chinese Medicine practitioner who can treat you with a customized herbal formula, you may be able to find one who can provide you with an "individualized pattern discrimination" (as Bob Flaws discussed in his opening post. Once you have that, you have access to all sorts of low-cost and no-cost self-treatment ideas presented in Bob Flaws' books, "Curing Fibromyalgia with Chinese Medicine," "The Tao of Heathy Eating," and other books he mentioned in his opening post (available at http://www.bluepoppy.com/ or http://www.amazon.com/.

    • If you cannot see a Chinese Medicine practitioner, Bob Flaws suggested seeing an experienced Holistic practitioner such as a Holistic M.D., Naturopath, etc. However, I still believe that some of the ideas in his books can be useful. Hopefully, we will be discussing other modalities that could be used instead of Chinese Medicine to successfully treat CFS and FMS.

Best Wishes,
- Mark
mgold@tiac.net
Home of CFS/FMS Holistic Mailing List
http://www.HolisticMed.com/cfs/


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: mgold@tiac.net
Subject: CFS/FMS: Final Question

> What it sounds like is that there isn't a really high quality,
> thoroughly trained professional practitioner of Chinese medicine in your
> area. People such as myself are pedalling as fast as we can to try and
> change this situation. I'm sorry the change has not come fast enough to
> help you.

Bob,

What, if anything, can I, our group, and people who read the Visiting Expert archives do to help in your efforts to encourage more high quality, thoroughly-trained practitioners of Chinese Medicine? Would it be useful for patients to print out your presentation (from the Visiting Expert archives) to show to their Chinese Medicine practitioner? Any other ideas?

Thank you for taking the time to be the honored Visiting Expert!

Best Wishes,
- Mark
mgold@tiac.net
Home of CFS/FMS Holistic Mailing List http://www.HolisticMed.com/cfs/


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Bob Flaws
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS: Final Question

Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:18:58 EST

Mark,

Phipppe Sionneau and I are currently writing a very large clinical manual on the treatment of modern Western diseases. This will include chapters on FMS and CFS. Hopefully, this book will help Western practitioners of Chinese medicine better understand how to pattern discriminate and treat these two complex chronic, enduring diseases.

However, the issues go much deeper than that. No clinical manual can ever really present answers to all the possible combinations and ramifications of complex diseases such as this. Each week, each patient typically presents a slightly different Chinese pattern which then requires a slightly different treatment strategy. Therefore, practitioners need to be able to generate these clinical answers themselves based on supposedly having mastered a certain body of basic information.

The beauty of Chinese medicine is that this system allows one to create an infinite number of individually tailored ad hoc treatments IF ONE REALLY UNDERSTANDS HOW TO USE THE SYSTEM. My experience as teacher here in the West (North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand) is that many, if not most, Western practitioners do not know how to really do this system in a systematic way. The main reasons for this, as I see it, are: 1) trying to learn too much in too little time, 2) insufficient admissions requirements and prerequisites at American schools, 3) insufficient academic and pedagological standards at these schools in terms of A) teachers' qualifications and B) students' homework, passing exams, and advancing from class to class, and 4) inaccurate verbal and written translations of technical materials which do not clearly convey how to make this system work in real life.

While there are certain problems endemic in American Chinese medical schools, a large part of the problem is that Chinese medicine is very difficult to practice well. It takes decades to really perfect the skills necessary to do this medicine at a high level. As John Shen has said, "Western medicine is difficult to study but easy to practice; Chinese medicine is easy to study but difficult to practice." This is why, in China, the title for really good Chinese doctors is "Old Chinese Doctor." It takes a long, long time and ceaseless study and practice to master this system of medicine, and most Western practitioners are, in terms of years of practice (though not necessarily chronological age), very young.

Diseases like CFS and FMS are considered "knotty, difficult to treat diseases" within Chinese medicine. In China, patients with these kinds of complex diseases are typically referred to senior Chinese doctors with decades of experience. Here, however, patients with these kinds of diseases are the main patient population of people fresh out of school who have very few resources for continuing mentoring and peer review after graduation. We saw this situation with one of our respondents last week. She spent two years (I may be remembering the amount of time wrong, sorry) and, therefore, a good bit of money, and, although she did get some benefits from the treatment she received, she did not receive the kind of competent, comprehensive care I believe she should have. I feel quite certain that her practitioner was as sincere as the day is long, but sincerity does not make up for incomplete education and lack of personal access to the Chinese medical literature.

If we could do one thing to immediately catapult upward the clinical competence of American practitioners of Chinese medicine, it would be to require every graduate of every American school to demonstrate a basic reading ability in modern medical Chinese. If one can read basic modern medical Chinese, one has access to hundreds of books and tens of thousands of journal articles published each year. Therefore, one can continue to educate themself if their schooling has been short and not so great. Articles on FMS and CFS are now beginning to show up in this years's Chinese medical journals. However, unless one can read Chinese (albeit with the help of a dictionary), one has no access to these materials.

So, if your readers would like to do something which would immediately raise the level of competence of Western practitioners of Chinese medicine, it would be to demand that practitioners read modern medical Chinese.

Would you go to Western MD who only had a few books on Western medicine which were, in many cases, erroneously translated? No, of course not. We expect our Western MDs to be well read and "up" on all the latest developments in the Western medical journals. In fact, this is a legal requirement. But Western practitioners cannot be well read and competently informed about Chinese medicine if they cannot read Chinese (or Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese). Just as German was the language of the majority of the Western medical literature 125 years ago and all medical students had to demonstrate a reading knowledge of German to graduate, likewise, Chinese is the professional language of Chinese medicine.

Sincerely,

Bob Flaws


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Camellia Pratt
Subject: visitors forum sorry I got lost on the way,hope I'm not too late.

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:37:16 -0700

Hi Bob and Mark

What a great idea having this discussion line going, I was expecting a lot more questions from cfs/fms patients... I am a practising D.T.C.M. (dr. of Traditional Chinese Medicine) with only 2 year experience... Graduated from the International College Of T.C.M. in Vancouver, B.C., Canada

I have seen many miraculous cures and have been on my journey of learning complementary health modalities for a decade, when my husband became so sick (dying) from his prescriptions of allopathic medicine.

I have a patient now coming to see me with CFS, hence looking for web sites to help me find answers for her conditions.. I look forward to your new book Bob... I have a minor Blue Poppy Press Book section in my library. Thank you for this great service..

Anyway, my patient tells me that she has a hard time being checked out by allopathic doctors now,even as far as checking her lungs when she has a cold, as they blame everything on the catch cow... fibromylagia... She definitely feels better after her treatments with me. Just Thank God, not me!!! but has a lot of things to look after ... Her lungs, spleen, liver and kidneys are all compromised. I noticed one thing during her iridology exam that she does have a toxic bowel, which could contribute considerably to her problems.. But I am so thank for this service offered here.

I unfortunately am not in a position financially right now to offer her raw herbal powders, I do have a few patents, and am using a few right now with her... Like zhi bai di huang wan, WHICH IS HELPING.

Another patient I wish to discuss,has MS which is very close to CFS/FMS in a lot of ways. Her muscles are perfectly toned, you would think she was a runner, but no strength to hold herself up.. I can control the unsteadiness with scalp acupuncture, but am stumped when it comes to why her legs won't work. We have worked a lot with Bach Flower Remedies also with her and that has resolved a lot of emotional issues with her. another interesting development, was when I started using scalp acupuncture for her poor speech, even her caregiver notices immediately that her speech improved tremendously. She has no pain, numbness... but her legs just won't work properly. she comes with a cane to my office and she can go home without it's use... lasts a week, but aback again. Any suggestions. Thank you so much for this service... sorry to take it away with MS, but they are very similar in some ways. Have a very merry Christmas.
Cam


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: mgold@tiac.net
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS visitors forum sorry I got lost on the way, hope I'm not too late.

Cam,

Hi! It's wonderful to have you on the discussion group! I'm sorry, but Bob's last day taking questions was Sunday. I wished that he could stay on the group longer. In general, Visiting Experts stay for one week as I discussed in my mini-presentation at:

http://www.holisticmed.com/cfs/#experts

He did give out an email address for professionals who are be interested in improving their Chinese Medicine skills:


I may take one of Bob Flaws' courses in the near future.

> I unfortunately am not in a position financially right now to offer
> her raw herbal powders, I do have a few patents, and am using a few
> right now with her... Like zhi bai di huang wan, WHICH IS HELPING.

I thought that practitioners charge for the herbals (at cost perhaps).

> She has no pain, numbness... but her legs just won't work properly. she
> comes with a cane to my office and she can go home without it's use...
> lasts a week, but aback again. Any suggestions.

I can think of quite a number of things that may help. Assuming that you have checked her out for toxic exposure (e.g., aspartmae, mercury, cavitation, etc.) and she *believes* that Holistic Medicine may be able to reverse her condition, the next two Visiting Experts (in January) may prove helpful. In addition, I know a practitioner near the Seattle area who uses a modality that involves structural and energetic transformation (among other things). If your patient is near that area, I could email you this practitioner's contact information. Finally, I have some links, books, news items and other information about MS at:

http://www.holisticmed.com/conditions/ms.html

Best Wishes,
- Mark
mgold@tiac.net
Home of CFS/FMS Holistic Mailing List
http://www.HolisticMed.com/cfs/


To: cfs-fms-holistic@mLists.net
From: Cyndi Norman cnorman@best.com
Subject: Re: CFS/FMS: Final Question

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:15:29 -0800 (PST)

    Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:13:21 -0700 (MST)
    From: Bob Flaws

    Phipppe Sionneau and I are currently writing a very large clinical manual on the treatment of modern Western diseases. This will include chapters on FMS and CFS. Hopefully, this book will help Western practitioners of Chinese medicine better understand how to pattern discriminate and treat these two complex chronic, enduring diseases.

This sounds great! If you haven't already, please also include Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS). This is of course related to FMS and CFS (I consider them all the same thing with different manifestations) and many of us with one actually have all 3 as formal diagnoses.

Cyndi
--
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG)
Cyndi Norman
cyndi@consultclarity.com
http://www.consultclarity.com/
Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/